Shakespeare Unlimited: Episode 178
Cynthia Santos DeCure and Micha Espinosa both grew up speaking English and Spanish, and they share memories of being made to feel like their voices, dialects, and identities weren’t “good enough” for Shakespeare. Now, both DeCure and Espinosa are vocal coaches and actors. They share an example of how an actor might embody their text, praise the late great Raul Julia, and explain how important it is for actors to bring their voces culturales to Shakespeare’s words.
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FolgerShakespeareLibrary · Bringing Latinx Voices to Shakespeare, with Cynthia Santos DeCure and Micha Espinosa
Cynthia Santos DeCure is an Assistant Professor of Acting at the Yale School of Drama. She was most recently the dialect coach for El Huracán at Yale Rep, and she was an on-set dialect coach for Orange is the New Black on Netflix.
Micha Espinosa is a Professor in the School of Music, Dance, and Theatre at Arizona State University. She was the Voice and Text Director for the Oregon Shakespeare Festival’s world premiere production of La Comedia of Errors, a bilingual adaptation of Shakespeare’s original play from the Play on! translation by Christina Anderson.
DeCure and Espinosa wrote about vocal coaching in chapters in Shakespeare and Latinidad, a collection of essays in the field of Latinx theater, edited by Carla Della Gatta and Trevor Boffone and published by Edinburgh University Press in June 2021.
From the Shakespeare Unlimited podcast. Published November 9, 2021. © Folger Shakespeare Library. All rights reserved. This podcast episode, “Any Accent Breaking From Thy Tongue,” was produced by Richard Paul. Garland Scott is the associate producer. It was edited by Gail Kern Paster. Ben Lauer is the web producer. Leonor Fernandez edits a transcript of every episode, available at folger.edu. We had technical help from Andrew Feliciano and Paul Luke at Voice Trax West in Studio City, California, Josh Leal at Sun Studios of Arizona in Tempe, and Ryan McEvoy at the Yale University Broadcast Studio.
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Transcript
MICHAEL WITMORE: When you speak the words of Shakespeare and someone tells you that what you did isn’t “good enough,” there are a lot of ways you could feel. There are also—thankfully—a lot of ways to cope.
From the Folger Shakespeare Library, this is Shakespeare Unlimited. I’m Michael Witmore, the Folger’s director.
The scenario I just mentioned—being told your Shakespeare isn’t “good enough”—that’s something that happens surprisingly often to performers who are first generation American, or who were raised as bilingual speakers. Cynthia Santos DeCure and Micha Espinosa have first-hand experience with this from both sides of the footlights. They both grew up speaking English and Spanish. They both got careers in the theater. And today, they both work as voice coaches, helping people who have been told that their Shakespeare isn’t “good enough,“ both to bolster their confidence and to keep them moving forward in their careers.
Cynthia is an Assistant Professor of Acting at the Yale School of Drama. She was most recently the dialect coach for El Huracán at Yale Rep, and she was an on-set dialect coach for Orange is the New Black on Netflix. Micha is a Professor in the School of Music, Dance, and Theatre at Arizona State University. Most recently, she was the Voice & Text Director for the Oregon Shakespeare Festival’s world premiere production, La Comedia of Errors, a bilingual adaptation of Shakespeare’s original play from the Play on! translation by Christina Anderson.
Cynthia and Micha have also written chapters in the new book Shakespeare and Latinidad that was edited by Carla Della Gatta and Trevor Boffone, where they talk about their work unraveling the shame and discomfort that can often come up when actors are told that their Shakespeare isn’t “good enough.”
They joined us from studios in Arizona and Connecticut to talk about their experiences in this podcast that we call, “Any Accent Breaking From Thy Tongue.”
Cynthia and Micha are interviewed by Barbara Bogaev.
——————-
BARBARA BOGAEV: Cynthia, can we talk about the concept of “good enough?” Because you wrote about, and this is a quote, “Doubts that our voices may not be good enough to tackle classical texts.” That you deal with that. How often do actors express something like that to you?
CYNTHIA SANTOS DECURE: Well, when I was teaching in Los Angeles, I actually heard that a lot because I was teaching at a Hispanic-serving institution. And a lot of the students were bilingual Latinx speaking both Spanish and English. Because Shakespeare is written in English, they thought that their language comprehension and or linguistic ability was not good enough. Unfortunately, I’ve heard it too many times to count.
BOGAEV: That just sounds so horrible. Micha, jump in here. I mean, it just sounds like this horrible weight of shame.
MICHA ESPINOSA: Yeah, there is a weight of shame, but I think it’s tied to policy. You know, over 20 years ago, there were laws that were passed in Arizona and California and Massachusetts. Over 20 years ago, there were English-only laws. So EEL learners were put into groups where they were taught only with EEL learners, so they weren’t around their English-speaking peers. Now these laws have been repealed.
But anywhere there is a dominant language, there’s going to be shame. Because one, you speak English better than you speak Spanish, or you speak Spanish better than you speak English. It becomes a dance, a dynamic. And one has to build shame resilience.
BOGAEV: So what do people say, then? What do your actors say when they talk about it? How do they articulate their worry and their shame to you? Micha?
ESPINOSA: They explain it as a feeling of not belonging. Well, it actually just comes out as freeze for the actor, but I understand it as a feeling of not belonging. So both Cynthia and I are practitioners. We’re actors. We understand the experience, so I think that we bring that sensitivity to our coaching. This dynamic of feeling of ni de aqui, ni de alla—either not Latina enough or too Latina.
DECURE: Yeah, I enter the work with the students from a culturally inclusive perspective. I’m immediately thinking, “I’m going to include your language. I’m going to include your culture. I’m going to include linguistic identity.”
So when I have a student who relates to me that they feel shame or they feel the hesitation, I’m trying to empower them through this cultural lens, through this cultural idea that language is identity. You have to express yourself as you are, and hence, you bring yourself into the text. You bring yourself into the work.
When Latinx actors or actors in general have been hesitant of speaking, you know, because of everything that Micha said and also because this whole hierarchical idea of speech and that classical text should be spoken a certain way. When they express hesitation—
BOGAEV: And by hesitation, do you mean they don’t want to do it? They just don’t want to do Shakespeare? Or, they don’t want to do the assignment you’re giving them?
DECURE: Well, yes. Or nervousness. Nervousness, you know, anxiety. Whenever that happens, I try to just model culture. I bring my cultural identity into the mix. I tell them my own story. I will sometimes show how I can do the text in my own Puerto Rican idiolect, which is different than how I’m speaking to you right now. So I put myself in their shoes to offer permission.
BOGAEV: So you model it.
DECURE: To see that they—I often model it, yes. I sometimes will start a monologue or a sonnet in full Puerto Rican idiolect. I’ll even say, “Hey, let’s just think about it in Spanish. ‘Cuando ellos atrevillas fuiste, entonces hombre,’” Like, “Let’s think about it in Spanish.” “Okay, now let’s think about the text in English: ‘When you durst do it, then you are a man.’” And even encourage them to bring their own idiolect and their rhythmic pattern into it so that it may sound, later on, like, “When you durst do it, then you are a man.”
You know, then you feel the power of the language. But you feel the power of the language from yourself, not from something that someone else thinks that you should speak like.
ESPINOSA: Spanglish also is a natural byproduct of that. Spanglish is tons of fun. It’s exciting and refreshing to be allowed to have all that cultural bumping that Spanglish invites.
Imagine that modern English might be a bit of a challenge at times, and then now the Queen’s English, suddenly you go, “Oh, am I worthy of the power of this language?” So, that shame that we were talking about, the sword cuts in multi ways, it cuts both ways. I’ll give you an example from Comedia of Errors. In the play, Antífolo de México says, “En el mundo, soy como una gota de agua buscando otra gota en medio del mar. I am to the world, I am like a drop of water that in the ocean seeks another drop.”
So in that example, he’s speaking Spanish and then immediately speaking in English. But then there’s also Emilia, who is an expert code switcher. She just is able—in the play, she’s lived in the US, but she’s from Mexico. So she says,
“Nuestros queridos vecinos, and all that are assembled in this place,
that by the sympathetic one day’s error
Have suffered wrong,
please come with us into the chapel here,
and we shall make full satisfacción.
Thirty-three years I have but been in labor
With you, and you, my sons; until this present hour
my heavy burden not delivered.
Mi comunidad, mi esposo y mis hijos both,
And you, the calendars of their nativity,
Go to the baptism feast—un nuevo bautismo—and come with me;
After such long grief, such festivity.”
And so I try to play with my students in the same way, allowing them to change a word here and there as we’re working on a sonnet or a monologue.
BOGAEV: Wow, that is really interesting, especially… and I don’t want to jump over this conversation about the shame that is so much a part of this process. I’m thinking back to something that, Micha, you wrote about in your article, and you both have mentioned, memories of childhood of not feeling empowered to speak. You wrote of memories of being put in the corner at school for speaking Spanish, which kind of leapt out at me. I mean, it’s like a kid with a dunce cap in the 1880s or something. When and where did that happen?
ESPINOSA: That happened in Texas in third grade. Like I said, there were a whole generation of actors like myself who grew up not only with the laws but, you know, our parents really wanted us to assimilate. So, the way to combat those shame memories is, the thing that shame hates—is being spoken about. We got to talk about it and reclaim our right to Spanglish, our right to our bicultural identity.
DECURE: I grew up in Puerto Rico, so I grew up with two languages, but one of them takes precedent over the other. I also encountered something similar. I spent about six weeks in an ESL class when I first moved to California from Puerto Rico.
This whole idea of the empowerment, or lack of empowerment, or sort of lack of encouragement comes from this idea that perhaps theater belongs to certain folks, or that Shakespeare belongs to certain folks and doesn’t belong to others. But my counterargument to that is that Shakespeare wrote for the masses, which means that if he were writing today, that would be for a multicultural audience, and that would be largely a Latinx audience.
So yes, I grew up this way. You know, these were the challenges I faced. But I’m also thinking about the future of the work. It’s inclusive. And if we don’t think about it that way, then we’re not going to have audiences that are going to witness it or listen to it.
BOGAEV: That’s reminding me of something that you wrote about in your chapter when you were addressing this issue of, quote unquote, “correct pronunciation” of Shakespeare. You were writing about David Crystal, who, by the way, was one of the very first guests we ever had on this podcast. He’s done a lot of research on the original pronunciation, or OP, how actors spoke on Shakespeare’s stage at the time. And his whole point is that it wasn’t like Laurence Olivier.
You describe what he documents, that the sounds on Shakespeare’s original stages did not follow any prescriptive or homogenous speech pattern. And the actors all came from different regions of the country, and there was no standard accent. It’s really pretty wild. And I understand you took part in a workshop that David did.
DECURE: Yeah, with Ben, both. And Micha, I think you were there as well.
BOGAEV: Ben Crystal.
DECURE: Right, Ben Crystal. And what was really remarkable is, “Oh, my goodness, OP sounds a lot like my students in East LA.” And this is when I was teaching at Cal State Los Angeles.
And, like, a light bulb opened up, and I realized, yes, everything that I had had a theory about, about bringing our own prosody, our own rhythmic pattern, into this work was true. Now I have evidence that this is the way it sounded. And hence, we can actually own it with greater detail because everyone who first spoke this spoke with different idiolects. Idiolect is your own personal dialect.
BOGAEV: Can you remember any examples from that kind of light bulb moment from that workshop?
[CLIP from Shakespeare Unlimited, “Pronouncing English as Shakespeare Did.”]
DAVID CRYSTAL:
Everybody today says words like “invention,” “musician,” “salvation,” even though we might vary them slightly, depending upon our regional background.
In Shakespeare’s time people said “music-ee-un,” “invent-ee-un,” or “salvát-ee-un.”
DECURE: There were extra syllables or extra sounds that we may not readily see in the written word, but the way that it would be pronounced, it added to a joke or added to the understanding and meaning. A different kind of meaning.
[Clip continues]
DAVID CRYSTAL:
Like for the prologue of Romeo and Juliet, where it says in the middle “From forth the fatal loins of these two foes, a pair of star-crossed lovers take their life.”
Well, loins. We know what loins are; they’re the way in which you generate children and so on. But when you know that loins was pronounced lines [pronounced somewhere between modern American English’s “lines” and “lions”], and the word lines, L-I-N-E-S, was also pronounced lines [pronounced the same way], then “From forth the fatal loins of these two foes,” it means not just from their bodily loins, but also from their genealogical lines.
Now, it doesn’t make a major, dramatic difference, but it does add that little bit more to our total knowledge of the playfulness with which Shakespeare is using language.
DECURE: So when I’m looking at something and I’m playing with it myself with my own Puerto Rican idiolect, I will think, “Oh, I can change the meaning in ways that I think Original Pronunciation did anyway.” So that there’s permission to play within the construct but in a way that it’s still sort of, like, this ancient way of permission because it was the way that it was spoken at the time.
The prosody of sound, it’s movement. It’s music, right? So we’re using music to illustrate a point. To communicate a thought. To communicate an idea. To emphasize something.
BOGAEV: Micha, I want to follow up on that idea with movement first because I’m curious how you apply this idea that there’s no standard correct pronunciation. The way that you write about it is, you talk about getting actors to embody the language. So tell us more about what that means, to embody the language.
ESPINOSA: Cynthia and I are both Fitzmaurice voice teachers, and that practice is a physical practice. It is a mixture of bioenergetics and yoga and shiatsu and classical voice training.
In order to own a word, you have to spend time with it. You have to get it into your nervous system. You have to play with it. You have to experiment with it.
The difference between my generation and the students of today is they have a lot of cultural intelligence, and they are identity conscious. They have a strong sense of, “I’m a Chicana. I’m a Mexican American.” They have their own set of self-identifying practices.
And, the one thing about the Fitzmaurice voice work is that it is a consent-based work. You spend time getting to know the actor, getting to work with the student, and allow them to self-identify, and then you can use what they have. Then, as you drop a word in that they don’t know, they can riff on words that they do know or images that the unknown word might evoke.
Embodiment is the practice of taking language and feeling it somewhere. Maybe in your guts, in your heart, in your ribs, maybe even in your left toe. Diving into your imaginary anatomy is useful for an actor. It gives them ways to play. And suddenly, when you speak the word, you own it.
BOGAEV: Okay, this is really fascinating. My left toe is just jumping right now. But I’d love an example, because it sounds like… we started this conversation, you were both talking about, “Well, the way my students express the shame to me is mostly they freeze.” So, it sounds like this process of embodying language is a way to thaw the body and thaw the mind and thaw the mouth.
DECURE: I’ll jump in. You know, voice in sound is corporal. It comes from the body. Every time that we begin to express ourselves, we create sound. We create vibration. You can feel the vibration of a word, how you form a sound, how you open up a vowel, how a plosive is explosive in your lips or in the middle of your vocal tract. You can feel it.
BOGAEV: And can either of you give an example of that from your teaching?
ESPINOSA: Sure. Let me think of something. Let’s take… actually, I’m about to coach Comedia of Errors here at Arizona State University, and one of the things I said we have to do is we have to start earlier. We have to start so that the students have time to titrate—that means to go slowly into the experience with these two languages. Especially when we are here so close to the border where we have all these border dynamics of which language is more dominant.
So if we go back to that quote that I was using from the play, of Antífolo of México, “En el mundo, soy como una gota de agua.” So let’s say they didn’t know the word gota. We find out that gota means drop. Gota. Gota.
So, first thing you would do is you would experience the consonants. G, g, g. G-gota. Now, the way you pronounce that T is different. It’s not go-tuh, so I would help them feel how the tongue might hit the back of the upper front teeth. Gota. Gota. Gota. Then, we would work on imagery, and maybe we would move our body to have little drops.
It seems silly, but this actual play with the word—now when they come back to it, instead of saying, [speaking like an English-speaker without a Latin accent] “En el mundo, soy como una gota de agua.” they maybe have gotten somewhere where they can go, “En el mundo, soy como una gota de agua.” They have an image behind that word that they didn’t know before. So that process takes time. When they do that, then they know it. They have it memorized. When they speak it, it sounds like they are a native speaker.
BOGAEV: Okay, that really illustrates it perfectly. Thank you. And we should probably remind people the Comedia of Errors, they’re twins. And one was brought up in Mexico, the other one’s in the US. You write about it. What was so meaningful to you was in this nuance of accented English of the native Spanish-speaking character, that the sounds were of someone who lives in two worlds.
ESPINOSA: It was actually incredibly moving for me to see the spectrum of my Latinx identity and my Latinx language identity in a play. I’m so excited to be able to share this with my students and dive into the text with them. We’re going to have a blast.
BOGAEV: Well, I think the backdrop to this conversation we’re having, for some of our listeners, might be the experience or the image of Raul Julia.
[CLIP from the 1981 New York Shakespeare’s production of The Taming of the Shrew. Raul Julia is Petruchio.]
PETRUCHIO:
She is my goods, my chattels; she is my house,
My household stuff, my field, my barn,
My horse, my ox, my ass, my anything.
BOGAEV: And that might be the experience that many of our listeners have had of a Latinx actor embracing Shakespeare.
[CLIP from 1974 PBS’s Great Performances, King Lear. Raul Julia is Edmund]
EDMUND:
Why brand they us
With “base,” with “baseness,” “bastardly,” “base,” “base,”
Who, in the lusty stealth of nature, take
More composition and fierce quality
Than doth within a dull, stale, tired bed
Go to th’ creating a whole tribe of fops
Got ‘tween asleep and wake? Well then,
Legitimate Edgar, I must have your land.
BOGAEV: Cynthia, you wrote that his performances were your earliest influences as an actor.
DECURE: Absolutely. You know, there’s something really powerful that happens when we not only see ourselves but we hear ourselves reflected on stage, film, and television. And he inspired me. I immediately understood that I was present. I could be what I wanted to be. That I could pursue an acting career. Especially as someone who wanted to do classical acting.
BOGAEV: And you hadn’t felt that you had that right. I ask because I thought you had a high school teacher who…
DECURE: Oh, yeah. Well, yes, I did have a high school teacher who, he said, “You know that there are no Hispanics in American theater.” And I was insulted. I was, you know… he told me Santa Claus didn’t exist or something along the lines.
That’s when I found that clipping from Raul Julia. And I brought it to him. It was in one of the Sunday papers. You know, something about Joseph Papp, Public Theater. And I brought it to him, and I said, “See? See? We are in American theater. Not only that, that’s a Puerto Rican. I’m Puerto Rican. I belong in American theater.”
[CLIP from the 1981 New York Shakespeare’s production of The Taming of the Shrew. Raul Julia is Petruchio. Meryl Streep, heard in the background, is Katherine.]
PETRUCHIO:
’Twas told me you were rough, and coy, and sullen,
And now I find report a very liar.
For thou art pleasant, gamesome, passing courteous,
But slow in speech, yet sweet as springtime flowers.
Thou canst not frown, thou canst not look askance,
Nor bite the lip as angry wenches will,
Nor hast thou pleasure to be cross in talk.
But thou with mildness entertain’st thy wooers,
With gentle conference, soft, and affable.
Why does the world report that Kate doth limp?
DECURE: He brought his own prosodic movement, his own musicality, his own inflection, his own rhythm. And unapologetically. He was just saying, “Well, sorry. Shakespeare is too big to be put in a small box, so I’m going to do it my way because my emotions and my words and my manner of being is big and it matches Shakespeare.”
I continue to draw from that. In fact, I was watching some of it the other day, and I was watching King Lear. I started realizing that it had a completely different meaning to me because politically, I could infer, “Wait a minute, he’s talking this way, and he’s a Puerto Rican talking about the themes of this play.”
[CLIP from 1974 PBS’s Great Performances, King Lear. Raul Julia is Edmund.]
EDMUND:
Thou, Nature, art my goddess. To thy law
My services are bound.
DECURE: That could also mean about the relationship between Puerto Rico and the United States.
[Clip continues]
EDMUND:
Wherefore should I
Stand in the plague of custom, and permit
The curiosity of nations to deprive me
For that I am some twelve or fourteen moonshines
Lag of a brother?
DECURE: Here’s this character claiming, “Hey, you know, I have a right to this.” And I started thinking, “Wait a minute. You know, Puerto Ricans, we’re American citizens.” So it’s almost as if you’re declaring your rights. It was Shakespeare’s words, but I was inferring identity and belonging from a different point of view. It blew my mind.
[Clip continues]
EDMUND:
When my dimensions are as well compact,
My mind as generous and my shape as true
As honest madam’s issue?
BOGAEV: I want to talk about something you mentioned in your essay, Micha. That you are very intent on making Shakespeare intelligible for the audience when you’re working with your Latinx actors. And I wanted to know, in what sense do you mean intelligible?
ESPINOSA: Well, if I’m going to invite the voz cultural, the cultural voice, it becomes unintelligible when my students are trying to be something other than they are. This isn’t just my Latinx students. This is all of my students.
They come in and they’re suddenly doing a British accent. And on the assignment, it says, “No British accents. Please bring yourself to the work,” you know?
The voz cultural is for all of us. Intelligibility only comes from one’s own understanding of the work, and then the audience gets it. Intelligibility comes from clarity in thought, ownership of the language, and a realization of… I guess I want to say of the dynamics.
You know, here on the border, these stories are universal stories. The stories, just like Comedia of Errors, they bring out the border dynamics, the treatments of immigrants and the reunification of families, and the urgency of empathy in our political times. When I can get my students to see the themes, to have them experience the word through that, it’s really wonderful. Then the voz cultural comes out, and then the work is intelligible.
DECURE: The only thing I would add to that is ownership. It belongs to all of us. When you’re speaking something that means something to you, your breath matches that thought, and you take ownership of consonants and vowels, and there’s more investment.
So, yes to everything Micha just said. Also, just really finding that personal connection, the meaning, and the reason why.
BOGAEV: You’re really all making this point that this isn’t—your work and what we’re talking about, it isn’t just about acting. And, Cynthia, you start your essay with just a firecracker of a thesis sentence, which is, “Voice, speech, and language are an act of rebellion.” So looking at the bigger picture here, what are you saying there about the broader benefits to, I don’t know, society and to Shakespeare of doing the work that you both do?
DECURE: Well, if we silence folks, then we’re actually losing. So, let’s all speak it. The absence of sound is silence. What are we doing when we silence communities, when we silence people from owning language?
To me, it’s like the investment is, yes, it’s rebellious. But it’s also about daring and making sure that you dare to declare your vocal rights. That you speak up unapologetically, like Raul did. Because when we hear ourselves represented onstage and off, we feel empowered to take that same kind of vocal impetus into other parts of our lives. It isn’t just about Shakespeare and being on stage. It’s about feeling like you can speak up for yourself. And this is just a conduit.
BOGAEV: Micha, you want to add to that?
ESPINOSA: Yeah. I love this idea of rebellion. I love it. I love it. Multiculturalism and multilingualism is an asset, and so students don’t want to be pigeonholed into only playing Latinx parts.
And that’s what’s so great about Shakespeare, is they have an opportunity to really explore in ways that possibly other plays might not allow them to because of the specificity of location. So, because of the ability to change locations and change the time period, there’s a lot of ability to kind of claim multiculturalism and multilingualism in Shakespeare.
BOGAEV: And what does it do for Shakespeare?
ESPINOSA: It makes it better.
BOGAEV: I was hoping you’d say that.
ESPINOSA: Of course.
BOGAEV: I was really so happy you both could come on the program. Thanks so much for joining me today.
DECURE: Thank you for the invitation.
ESPINOSA: Well, thank you so much for having us. I think this is a great conversation about how do we mine the social, political, creative linguistic power in our bodies. I think that Shakespeare being a conduit for that is a great thing. So thanks for having us.
——————-
WITMORE: Cynthia Santos DeCure is an Assistant Professor of Acting at the Yale School of Drama. Micha Espinosa is a Professor in the School of Music, Dance, and Theatre at Arizona State University. Their chapters on voice coaching appear in Shakespeare and Latinidad, a collection of essays in the field of Latinx theater, edited by Carla Della Gatta and Trevor Boffone. Shakespeare and Latinidad was published by Edinburgh University Press in June 2021.
Cynthia and Micha were interviewed by Barbara Bogaev.
Our podcast, “Any Accent Breaking From Thy Tongue,” was produced by Richard Paul. Garland Scott is the associate producer. It was edited by Gail Kern Paster. Ben Lauer is the web producer, with help from Leonor Fernandez. We had technical help from Andrew Feliciano and Paul Luke at Voice Trax West in Studio City, California, Josh Leal at Sun Studios of Arizona in Tempe, and Ryan McEvoy at the Yale University Broadcast Studio.
If you’re a fan of Shakespeare Unlimited, please leave us a positive review on Apple Podcasts.
Shakespeare Unlimited comes to you from the Folger Shakespeare Library. Home to the world’s largest Shakespeare collection, the Folger is dedicated to advancing knowledge and the arts. You can find more about the Folger at our website, folger.edu. Thanks for listening. For the Folger Shakespeare Library, I’m Folger Director Michael Witmore.